ctk wrote:I've just been looking at the Tour podium finishers.
If Lance is stripped of his titles Ullrich would have 4 wins! And I think Bjarne Riis has been stripped of his? Thats 5 for Ullrich. Ullrich also finished 2nd to Pantani... so 6!
Other people who have finished 2nd to Lance are Beloki, Kloden & Zulle.
Ullrich would get none as he is an admitted doper who has already been stripped of his wins. I might be wrong but I believe each person you named is also been caught doping. That's the problem with stripping Lance, anyone who was good enough to podium was doping... the winner would be the 5th or 6th place finisher in some Tours! Madness!!!
Its been going on since it started it used to be Champagne & cocaine (ah those were the days!) ANd of course Tommy Simpson died on Alpe D'Huez with all sorts in his system.
I saw an article in a cycling mag that showed it would be necessary to go back 8-10 places before a rider without known doping connections was reached, notice that they used the word "known"....
I just finished reading "The Secret Race" by Tyler Hamiliton and Daniel Coyle. After digesting all the material in addition to what I have gathered on internet news sites my opinion has shifted somewhat. There is no question Lance doped. There is no question the whole peloton was doping. There is little evidence that as doping became more heavily monitored and controlled the practice of doping became sketchier, more dangerous, and much more underground.
My opinion has changed on a point that Mark made about Lance's "win at all costs" mentality. He really was going to win at all costs, and too bad for you if you got in his way. Hamilton claims Lance narked on him to the UCI when he outperformed him on ONE STAGE...its not like he took a title from him or even the yellow jersey. Lance was a dangerously narrcasistic megalomaniac by all accounts and when push came to shove for those closest to testify in court...Lance then throws in the towel and proffers an excuse to effect of "woe is me" and I am the target of a witch hunt, etc. Which he was, and apparently for good reason. I get the impression these allegations had much more to do about greed and power then they did about drug use and unfair victories. Lance had immense amounts of power in the world of cycling and the more power he got the more he leveraged it in his favor, at the expense of many, many people.
Therein is my problem with Lance and this whole debacle. I now equate him to the Wall St. Titan (or Rick Petino) who takes their power and uses it to stack the deck in their favor. More so though I despise that they take that same power and use it to target specific individuals and limit their achievements. That is what I gather Lance was so notorious for doing which is why when it came time for those who knew him best to testify under oath he backed out. You can't screw people to get ahead and then expect them to have your back and bail you out...(or maybe you can GM, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac)
Check out the book, I dont take it as gospel by any means but it does put a perspective on the issue that we don't hear in the media.
Ascent times of Alpe d'Huez, the penultimate climb in Le Tour:
1. 1997 Marco Pantani (admitted user and victim of suicide) 37' 35" 2. 2004 Lance Armstrong 37' 36" 3. 1994 Marco Pantani 38' 00" 4. 2001 Lance Armstrong 38' 01" 5. 1995 Marco Pantani 38' 04 6. 1997 Jan Ullrich (admitted user) 38' 23" 7. 2006 Floyd Landis (admitted user) 38' 34"
These all occured during the prime time era of EPO/blood doping use in cycling. For some perspective consider now that the peloton is cleaner than ever (consider, don't necessarily believe it)
25. 2011 Alberto Contador 41' 30" 29. 2011 Pierre Roland 41' 57" 31. 2011 Ryder Hesjedal 43' 12"
Don't forget that Contador was found guilty of doping too and subsequently banned. He had egg on his face for talking mess about Lance doping and then he got caught himself... sucker!!!
I still think that doped up or not, Marco Pantani was the greatest climber (possibly debatable) but without a doubt he was the greatest descender ever!!!
You know you're watching someone special descending when the BMW moto can't keep on him!!! Please excuse the the quality and the cheese music but enjoy his brilliance as he yards out on the cameraman!
93 A2R blue/white 14" Craigslist Austin, on the cheap 94 A2M silver/white 14" Cenna's Cycles SA, original owner 94 Cuda Comp purple/white 14" won on Ebay 95 XX Team gold/white 14" Craigslist Memphis
For all the doping and substances circulating, one thing holds true for me... the chemicals did not make Marco descend well... Marco's gigantic UOVA (Italian for huevos aka eggs aka you get the point ) made him downhill like a madman!!! He may or may not have been the best up the mountain but there has never been anyone as good coming down... and drugs/dope had nothing to do with his fearless descending and technical ability! Long live The Pirate!!!
) made him downhill like a madman!!! He may or may not have been the best up the mountain but there has never been anyone as good coming down... and drugs/dope had nothing to do with his fearless descending and technical ability! Long live The Pirate!!!